tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5110120806388167738.post1798816111905164380..comments2023-04-28T09:46:09.269-04:00Comments on Sitting on the Fence: Clothing and Identity Among the Orthoprax and OTDFence Sitterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10710804417216575955noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5110120806388167738.post-6037335953718485832011-06-24T13:25:53.315-04:002011-06-24T13:25:53.315-04:00G*3 said:
>>It seems like entirely too much...G*3 said:<br /><br />>>It seems like entirely too much trouble to go to for an ideal of behavioral consistency – an ideal of questionable value.<<<br /><br />I agree. Our beliefs and behaviors are often contradictory because they were instilled in us at an early age. You're letting all your values fight it out right now. If you "fight the fighting", by worrying or judging yourself about your inconsistency, you'll never make progress. <br /><br />I think Jackie Chan said life is like water. You can try to face it head on, and you'll lose. Or you can go with the flow and sometimes it'll allow you to direct it. I think you'll be much happier like that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5110120806388167738.post-80374955436290670122011-06-24T12:43:37.179-04:002011-06-24T12:43:37.179-04:00Hey just found your blog off Unpious. Good stuff.Hey just found your blog off Unpious. Good stuff.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5110120806388167738.post-87843659519934972952011-06-20T16:17:29.023-04:002011-06-20T16:17:29.023-04:00I was never a "frum looking" guy even th...I was never a "frum looking" guy even though I was part of the orthodox community socially albeit. My wife stopped wearing pants/shorts and sleevless when we enrolled our baby girl in a frum playgroup in Brooklyn. That was our first mistake. It's been downhill ever since Today that baby girl won't eat in our home unless...........(you can guess the rest)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5110120806388167738.post-89565455568397545892011-06-20T11:58:42.307-04:002011-06-20T11:58:42.307-04:00Can anyone comment on how one's spouse and old...Can anyone comment on how one's spouse and older children reacted to a major change in tznius or dress? Did it cause strain on the marriage or on relationship with the children?tesyaanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5110120806388167738.post-82426090999345181592011-06-20T09:39:11.406-04:002011-06-20T09:39:11.406-04:00What does "dress up like an Orthodox Jew"...What does "dress up like an Orthodox Jew" mean? I still wear long skirts and 3/4 length sleeves for many occasions because it's a style I like. I have fundamentalist Christian friends who wear the same because they don't like showing skin. Many of the men at my Jewish Renewal synagogue wear kippot all the time because they want to identify as Jews. Orthodoxy doesn't have exclusive rights to kippot. Ditto white shirts and black pants - that is the uniform of Mormon missionaries.<br /><br />In answer to the original question, uncovering my hair was one of the last things I did simply because wearing a sheitel ruined my hair and I dreaded letting anyone see it. Only after I had a hair transplant did I finally uncover it.chaimsmomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5110120806388167738.post-82091425845102160842011-06-20T04:15:11.313-04:002011-06-20T04:15:11.313-04:00Your clothing should be honest. If I dress up like...Your clothing should be honest. If I dress up like a cop or a soldier, but I'm really a civilian that's a crime. If I dress up like an Orthodox Jew but I'm really a non-Jewish Christian missionary that's unethical.jewish philosopherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17987540457195983665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5110120806388167738.post-55333784840469862602011-06-19T23:31:28.707-04:002011-06-19T23:31:28.707-04:00"A Yeshivish guy. That the current American y..."A Yeshivish guy. That the current American yeshiva system is descended from the Litvish yeshiva system doesn’t make everyone who’s yeshivish a litvak.<br /><br />Sorry, it’s a pet peeve of mine."<br /><br />Thank you!Tovahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13810096432831688198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5110120806388167738.post-8831013049654145242011-06-19T17:07:29.148-04:002011-06-19T17:07:29.148-04:00SF: I seriously feel honored beint mentioned on yo...SF: I seriously feel honored beint mentioned on your blog! :) I made a point to show I got a bit more modern / rational by wearing jeans once in a while, more colored clothing and a leather yarmulka. However, I seriously think they suck in hot weather (they tend to give off color).<br /><br />@SY: I would be too nervous to do that! Especially since I have a few Jewish colleagues of which one is a very frum guy who happens to be my opposite door neighbor!<br /><br />@Ben Sira: It could very well be that people would react like that, but there is no guarantee in life besides kicking the bucket eventually.Undercover Koferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00194328471722983693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5110120806388167738.post-22140343029849699652011-06-19T15:16:55.218-04:002011-06-19T15:16:55.218-04:00> Perhaps its different for men, to some degree...> Perhaps its different for men, to some degree? All we have to do to make a statement is uncover our head.<br /><br />Guys can make more subtle statements than that. The type of yarmulke you wear practically screams which segment of Orthodoxy you belong to.G*3noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5110120806388167738.post-85739744111861203382011-06-19T09:56:14.312-04:002011-06-19T09:56:14.312-04:00Skeptical Yid,
That's interesting - I had the...Skeptical Yid,<br /><br />That's interesting - I had the opposite reaction. Aside from other Orthodox Jews, no one I work with commented at all about my missing kippa, nor did anyone assume it indicated I was no longer observant. It turned out I cared about how it made me look/feel much more than anyone else did.BenSirahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15761741531815925420noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5110120806388167738.post-59897511818847013852011-06-19T06:51:18.526-04:002011-06-19T06:51:18.526-04:00Perhaps its different for men, to some degree? Al...Perhaps its different for men, to some degree? All we have to do to make a statement is uncover our head. I recall the first time I walked into work with my head uncovered. I felt like everyone was staring at me. It turned out to be the truth. A number of people approached me in order ask me if I realized that I'd forgotten to wear a kippah. I thanked them for their courtesy and told them that I was aware of it. After that no one asked again, or seemed to care.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5110120806388167738.post-60122276321171624582011-06-19T00:14:45.211-04:002011-06-19T00:14:45.211-04:00I don't understand why dressing in keeping wit...I don't understand why dressing in keeping with tznius necessarily identifies you as frum. It's not like stereotypical yeshiva garb.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5110120806388167738.post-39161164181030204062011-06-18T22:58:53.243-04:002011-06-18T22:58:53.243-04:00> A Litvish man is often called "black hat...> A Litvish man is often called "black hat"<br /><br />A Yeshivish guy. That the current American yeshiva system is descended from the Litvish yeshiva system doesn’t make everyone who’s yeshivish a litvak.<br /><br />Sorry, it’s a pet peeve of mine.<br /><br />> I still often dress tznius at home even as I am committing aveiros. The only explanation that I have for this is that I am simply not comfortable (yet) with identifying as non-frum.<br /><br />Might it not just be habit? Are you really going to change your outfit Friday night before logging on? It seems like entirely too much trouble to go to for an ideal of behavioral consistency – an ideal of questionable value.<br /><br /> > This probably also explains why some people who have recently gone off-the-derech dress in a manner that is more provocotive than that of general society. By dressing in a manner that is the direct opposite of tznius, it expresses that one wants to be sure that she is not identified with a community that she despises.<br /><br />Some. For others it’s probably just reveling in their freedom, trying out what was forbidden to them all their life.<br /><br />> Were you keeping shabbos while dressed in a non-frum (by anyone's standard) manner<br /><br />What is that, exactly? I was by someone’s house the other day, and if I hadn’t known he was a member of my shul I would never have guessed by the way they dressed that he and his wife are frum. Yet in practice he’s as frum as I am, and in belief more so.<br /><br /><br />I changed the way I dressed at others’ urging, first my mother telling me that if I was looking for a modern girl I shouldn’t dress in the black-and-white yeshivish uniform, then my wife urging me to dress more like her modern brothers. But then, I’m a guy, and I stereotypically don’t care much about clothes.G*3noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5110120806388167738.post-81386846051652617322011-06-18T17:04:31.387-04:002011-06-18T17:04:31.387-04:00Mark Twain said "Clothes make the man" -...Mark Twain said "Clothes make the man" - Chazal also had a similar statement - R Yochanan in Shabbos daf 113 said - I call my clothes my "honorers". In some ways we can say that "you are who you dress to be" - we ALL have a need/desire to show the world a view of ourselves that matches some expectation of what we want them to see. This is just as true in the general public (non-Jewish) as in the Frum community. And the best proof of that is to just look at "celebrities" and see how very makpid they are on the very specific details of how they appear to the public.<br />And how much of our external appearance is kept only because of social pressure? Especially for women. (Sorry to get all sexist, correct me if I'm wrong but it would appear to me that women in ALL societies dress according to how they will be judged by other women, no?) <br />Is there a correlation between our external appearence and our internal beliefs/desires - not always and not neccesarily.chaynobodyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01555831452024893892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5110120806388167738.post-68008559262460521872011-06-18T13:53:52.014-04:002011-06-18T13:53:52.014-04:00this is a great post, and I think I'm going to...this is a great post, and I think I'm going to write a post in reply (but probably not today). <br /><br />I didn't completely get rid of my shabbas skirt suits (which I would never wear except to go to shul on shabbas) until when I moved a year ago, which was about 13 years after I first stopped keeping shabbas (and 6 years after I last stepped into an orthodox shul). But it was a long journey in between the two.Abandoning Edenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12696116071749613265noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5110120806388167738.post-50656507200917401982011-06-17T22:35:55.191-04:002011-06-17T22:35:55.191-04:00Early on. I carried a huge purse with tiny clothes...Early on. I carried a huge purse with tiny clothes in it. I would change out of the "Frum Drag" at a friend's house and pull the denim miniskirt and black satin and sequin corset top out of my comically huge handbag. Then I would dust myself in glitter, purple, green and blue eyeshadow and MAC Russian Red lipstick. Then we would all head to a rave in the city...This was the late 90's very early 00s'.AriSparkleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05353792696786575669noreply@blogger.com