tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5110120806388167738.post8465873761273075213..comments2023-04-28T09:46:09.269-04:00Comments on Sitting on the Fence: The FenceFence Sitterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10710804417216575955noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5110120806388167738.post-86919681390225773052012-01-05T22:21:10.019-05:002012-01-05T22:21:10.019-05:00Your first paragraph reminds me of North Korea/Sou...Your first paragraph reminds me of North Korea/South Korea. (I recently read Barbara Demick's Nothing To Envy: Ordinary Lives in North Korea. I think you would enjoy it, and may find inspiration in the courage of those people to leave the totalitarian regime in which they were trapped).C. Laundryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09458967193329329707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5110120806388167738.post-38981905463744807432011-11-08T11:04:50.560-05:002011-11-08T11:04:50.560-05:00I feel for you (speaking as someone who is kind of...I feel for you (speaking as someone who is kind of on a fence too, as you can tell by my pen name!)Woodrow/Conservadoxhttp://conservadox.tripod.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5110120806388167738.post-37387484498271610462011-09-09T05:56:34.149-04:002011-09-09T05:56:34.149-04:00Pat,
I was describing the attitude of the communi...Pat,<br /><br />I was describing the attitude of the community. And I wouldn't say that there are no rabbis who take responsibility for their decisions. But in my experience, there are only few who do.EOTnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5110120806388167738.post-69117701902327960332011-09-08T15:26:12.248-04:002011-09-08T15:26:12.248-04:00Do I misunderstand the ketubah to state that the h...Do I misunderstand the ketubah to state that the husband takes on the responsibility to support his wife and family and not the other way around? Would reminding your husband of that help to bring him closer to the real world you live in?Maven-Girlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5110120806388167738.post-53080067743721970652011-09-04T14:59:08.719-04:002011-09-04T14:59:08.719-04:00EOT,
So what you're saying is that no rabbi w...EOT,<br /><br />So what you're saying is that no rabbi will responsibility<br />for his decisions.<br /><br />PatAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5110120806388167738.post-19631353465088343112011-09-02T06:24:40.338-04:002011-09-02T06:24:40.338-04:00Pat,
in general, people are discouraged from maki...Pat,<br /><br />in general, people are discouraged from making their own choices. But if they have asked a rav (rabbi) what to do, and followed the advice, and the outcome is bad, they are still not allowed to criticize the rav. The attitude of the community is either "one can't understand G'ds ways", or "it must be your fault, you must have done something wrong".EOTnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5110120806388167738.post-53439284416647848362011-08-28T16:14:12.179-04:002011-08-28T16:14:12.179-04:00"No, but the Torah itself (or for that matter..."No, but the Torah itself (or for that matter, any religion) can provide life with a meaning and purpose. This is arguably the main accomplishment of religion."<br /><br />I thought religion's main accomplishment (according to its adherents) was its ability to grant people entry into some sort of afterlife by providing them a supposedly "correct" way to live. Meaning is irrelevant when one's salvation is on the line.Tovahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13810096432831688198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5110120806388167738.post-9490345898254291812011-08-28T10:12:48.224-04:002011-08-28T10:12:48.224-04:00Fence Sitter,
Thank you for your candor.
Do you ...Fence Sitter,<br /><br />Thank you for your candor.<br /><br />Do you think that the community you describe empowers its members with responsibility for making their own decisions and choices, or allows its members to influence the community's policies?<br /><br />PatAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5110120806388167738.post-54768984038783379062011-08-28T09:52:32.118-04:002011-08-28T09:52:32.118-04:00Pat,
The Orthodox community presents an image of ...Pat,<br /><br />The Orthodox community presents an image of a functioning society guided by a set moral code. In this society, everyone is dedicated to the service of God, men through learning and (sometimes) through supporting their families, whilw women are happy raising large families and possibly working at family-friendly jobs. Somehow, through a combination of trust in God and hard work, everyone is able to "make it". even without a college degree or other job training.<br /><br />The reality is far different. Not everyone can fit into traditional gender roles. Many people suffer terribly financially and are not making it, or are making it through tax fraud or other illegal means. Alternatively, some people break the rules and go to college while telling others that it is forbidden to do so. People are told that they should try to get jobs in "klei kodesh" (religious positions), only to find that those jobs, and even many secular ones, are given out based on nepotism rather than merit. Everything from who one marries to where one works to where ones kids attend school is decided based on the external image that a person presents, rather than their inner qualities.<br /><br />The frum world claims that the secular world is shallow, while in reality the frum world is at least as shallow as the srcular world.Fence Sitterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10710804417216575955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5110120806388167738.post-90830400060520577302011-08-28T09:41:49.897-04:002011-08-28T09:41:49.897-04:00JRK and Aztec,
You are right in that being modern...JRK and Aztec,<br /><br />You are right in that being modern Orthodox may solve some of these issues, but I do have issues with MO (which I will save for another post). Also, my husband is about as likely to become MO as he is to become totally not frum (and possibly even less so), so that option would be really impractical unless we get divorced.Fence Sitterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10710804417216575955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5110120806388167738.post-11514162221888278332011-08-26T12:10:57.205-04:002011-08-26T12:10:57.205-04:00> the utopian facade corruption runs rampant
C...> the utopian facade corruption runs rampant<br /><br />Could you please say a little more about both<br />the utopian image that's projected, and also<br />the corruption?<br /><br />Thanks,<br /><br />PatAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5110120806388167738.post-24374872132940542892011-08-25T13:58:14.636-04:002011-08-25T13:58:14.636-04:00Believe it or not, I try to give myself the best o...Believe it or not, I try to give myself the best of all worlds. I observe Torah--but that's where I draw the line. Anything even remotely segula-based gets round-filed. Any bans by "Gedolim" (who decided that these were great rabbis? I don't even know who they are or why they were chosen) are analyzed solely on their merits. I take frequent trips to the city. I homeschool my kids to ensure they have a broad worldview. <br />Sometimes I wonder if Hashem is looking at the society we created and is shaking His head. "This isn't what I had in mind..."AztecQueen2000noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5110120806388167738.post-15639294346539518872011-08-23T16:35:54.941-04:002011-08-23T16:35:54.941-04:00It's very likely that:
1. You may be frustra...It's very likely that:<br /><br />1. You may be frustrated by people doing things that aren't about being frum at all, but just people who happen to frum, who also happen to be flawed human beings. Wearing the Team Frum jersey doesn't make you perfect, and it doesn't even mean that what you do is religiously permissible if you were to really look at the issue.<br /><br />2. You need to recognize that what you see as the frum world may just be one sect that is a part of it. There are groups that don't follow your Rebbe. There are also non-Haredi Orthodox groups that have absolutely no problem with men or women going to college and having normal careers.<br /><br />3. You need to know that there is a world of Jews that aren't totally assimilated and that value their Judaism - even though they are not Orthodox.<br /><br />I'm not telling you which side of the fence to pick - I'm encouraging you to widen your vision to see that the fence doesn't need to be there.Law momhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01859590966207623757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5110120806388167738.post-78807294888475803012011-08-23T14:55:15.755-04:002011-08-23T14:55:15.755-04:00Find a therapist who is modernishe and give them a...Find a therapist who is modernishe and give them a talking to; it's a not-at-all uncommon experience, and there are even orthodox who are committed orthoprax and thinkers defending such a lifestyle choice, to whatever degreees - it's about navigating your decisions and sharing your thoughts and feelings with someone who understands AS A TRAINED PROFESSION - not just friends frum or frei. I AM saying seek help - but not because somethings wrong with your choices, but because - you need help!Pierre Sogolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10147586371567143922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5110120806388167738.post-12268241502780664152011-08-23T12:55:31.735-04:002011-08-23T12:55:31.735-04:00Anon.,
Yes my husband really is super frum. He is...Anon.,<br /><br />Yes my husband really is super frum. He is constantly learning and davening whenever he has the opportunity.Fence Sitterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10710804417216575955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5110120806388167738.post-26386876418401645142011-08-23T12:53:13.456-04:002011-08-23T12:53:13.456-04:00No, but the Torah itself (or for that matter, any ...No, but the Torah itself (or for that matter, any religion) can provide life with a meaning and purpose. This is arguably the main accomplishment of religion. Those people who are sincere in their observance often do work towards a goal and have a sense of purpose. Whether those goals are positive or negative are another matter.Fence Sitterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10710804417216575955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5110120806388167738.post-2236988092379109932011-08-23T12:10:48.937-04:002011-08-23T12:10:48.937-04:00"This side of the fence offered me a life ful..."This side of the fence offered me a life full of choices, yet lacking in meaning."<br /><br />...And frum charades are meaningful?Tovahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13810096432831688198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5110120806388167738.post-63706005632828703002011-08-23T10:20:11.746-04:002011-08-23T10:20:11.746-04:00First of all I must compliment your style of pros ...First of all I must compliment your style of pros as it it paints a clear image of a conundrum that many like minded people do not know hot to express. You don't want to throw out the proverbial "baby with the bathwater" So what can one do? There is no one answer. But there are solutions. If your husband the main obstacle you can try to work on him ...gradually. Is really devout like I mean Moshiach, Chitas and negel vasser by the bed ?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5110120806388167738.post-14046132897572792202011-08-23T01:51:24.023-04:002011-08-23T01:51:24.023-04:00Great piece!
You should realize that in at least o...Great piece!<br />You should realize that in at least one aspect you are luckier than many of us in the same boat - you have lived on that "other" side - you know what it's like to live in the secular world, free of Judaism and its many rules and restrictions. I for one, having lived all my life as a Frum Yid, have no idea what it's like - to simply wake up in the morning and eat breakfast or take a drive with the kids on our day off, or eat without any thought of all the rules of Kashrus. The freedom to read and learn anything without fear of who "ossured" it.chaynobodyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01555831452024893892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5110120806388167738.post-67128118617310208082011-08-22T22:32:55.425-04:002011-08-22T22:32:55.425-04:00Modern orthodoxy incorporates much of what it seem...Modern orthodoxy incorporates much of what it seems you are yearning for.<br /><br />Why not give it a shot? Is it all or nothing??<br /><br />KsilAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5110120806388167738.post-2918992801489337722011-08-22T18:26:46.497-04:002011-08-22T18:26:46.497-04:00Good luck. I think you are making a great decision...Good luck. I think you are making a great decision.Rabbi Lamech Somayach Meshumad Meshubachhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11229769491906469417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5110120806388167738.post-79475122046382895812011-08-22T18:10:35.280-04:002011-08-22T18:10:35.280-04:00Sigh.
I can only tell you that you're not alon...Sigh.<br />I can only tell you that you're not alone – you're really not alone. My story is almost the same (albeit from the other side of the mechitza), and there are so many of us out there. <br />While I know that the love that misery gets from company isn’t always satisfying, at least it helps with the loneliness. All I can suggest is that clichéd and boring refrain: “Just take it day by day.” I hope it works out well for you and your family (and all of us)...Gutman Braunhttps://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100002696055077noreply@blogger.com