Saturday, September 3, 2011

A Former Fanatic Revisits Tznius

Hi, my name is Fence, and I used to be a tznius fanatic.

Yes, you read that right, the author of this OTD blog who now wears pants and short sleeves whenever she can get away with it, used to be really into tznius--for years. I practically had Oz V'hadar Levusha memorized and was makpid on everything from covering my head (I kept my hair covered at all times except when showering) to covering my toes (opaque tights, "aidel" shoes, etc). I also learned the mekoros from tznius inside halachic sefarim, and would readily debate and defend my tznius standards whenever asked.

Despite what many people who know me speculate, I did not go off the derech because of frustration from keeping such a high standard of tznius. This was not a case of taking on too much and then confusing chumra and minhag. As I said, I learned mekoros and knew full well that many of the things that I kept were in fact chumros.

So, what happened?

I believe very strongly in acting in a way that is consistent with the way that one believes. I decided to become frum as a young teenager because I believed that the Torah was true and therefore felt that it was wrong not to keep it. Despite the tremendous difficulties that it involved, I took on one mitzvah at a time until I was fully shomer mitzvos, or since of course no one can keep all the taryag mitzvos, as observant as possible.

As tznius--or to a lesser extent, the equivalent for men, yiddishe levush--is the ultimate external representation of ones beliefs to the world, I viewed this mitzvah as particularly important. Therefore, I was extremely bothered by frum people who did not keep tznius properly. I viewed frum people who believed in the halachic system, including the principle of "minhag yisrael Torah hee", yet dressed in a manner totally inconsistent with halacha, as the ultimate hypocrites. How could I have respected someone who believes that there is a God-given objective truth, yet chooses to openly violate it to fulfill a taavah to follow fashion? So, yes, not only was I makpid on tznius, I was also intolerant of those who were not.

However, as I grew older and circumstances led me to start questioning Judaism, I ran into a problem. At first I held steadfastly to tznius even while breaking shabbos, because tznius had become so important to me that I could not bear to deviate from it. Yet as time went on and the dichotomy between my beliefs and the way I dressed grew wider, I could not bear it any longer. My way of dress had to change. But, as I was and still am living in the frum community, it could not change completely without harming my family. So, I joined the ranks of the not-quite-tznius frummies whom I had once despised. But I have started dressing in a truly secular manner at college and wherever else I can get away with it, in order to minimize the need to live a double life.

As I walk down the street in questionably-tznius, yet frum-looking clothing, I can't help but wonder if there is a young woman out there looking at me with the same disdain that I once felt towards others. If there is, then she is somewhat right. I am a hypocrite, but not in the way that she thinks.

What goes around, comes around.

41 comments:

  1. quite often even frum people will sit there and think "really, does G-d really care if my elbow is showing, or my knee is showing" not so different tbh

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  2. This:
    > I believe very strongly in acting in a way that is consistent with the way that one believes.

    Is the answer to this:

    > I viewed frum people who believed in the halachic system, including the principle of "minhag yisrael Torah hee", yet dressed in a manner totally inconsistent with halacha, as the ultimate hypocrites. could I have respected someone who believes that there is a God-given objective truth, yet chooses to openly violate it to fulfill a taavah to follow fashion?

    Are most women consciously violating halachah to “fulfill a taavah to follow fashion?” Or are they merely dressing the way that everyone in their community dresses, and regard those who are more restrictive as chumra-obsessed nuts? I think the latter, and if so, they are absolutely acting in accordance with their beliefs.

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  3. I am referring to those who dressed in a manner that was less tznius than what those in their circles grew up learning. For example, every Chabad girl grows up learning that she should cover her knees, elbows, and hair fully, so I was judgmental towards those who didn't.

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  4. How is it logical to assume that God would not care about knees showing, but would care about whether you turn on lights on shabbos or whether you have separate dishes for meat and dairy?

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  5. I went through the exact same thing! I would walk around Crown Heights in a T-shirt and jeans and without a beard, and look disdainfully at all the guys with trimmed beards. I was trying to express my true beliefs, while they were a bunch of lazy-ass hypocrites!

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  6. It still bugs me to see the "modern Chabad" crowd in Crown Heights. But not as much. I don't really care that they're perverting Chabad tradition, considering it was never really that important.

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  7. Does your husband care that you wear pants? How do you handle haircovering in your secular clothing, or do you uncover at those times?

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  8. > I am referring to those who dressed in a manner that was less tznius than what those in their circles grew up learning. For example, every Chabad girl grows up learning that she should cover her knees, elbows, and hair fully, so I was judgmental towards those who didn't.

    What someone is taught in school is less important than what her family and especially what her friends do. If it is acceptable in her social circle to wear skirts that show the knee, then she probably will.

    Most people don’t do things because of an explicit belief system, but because that’s what they do. I think most people learn how to be frum not so much from formal teaching and texts but from copying what those around them do – so much so that the concept is enshrined in halahcha as minhag Yisroel.

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  9. He cares but he is learning to accept it. No, I do not cover my hair when dressed "not frum" as the hair covering is the thing that makes me look the most frum.

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  10. I used to get bugged out from the apparent hypocrisy too. Eventually I learnt that not everyone is black and white in their beliefs and even for those that are - in many instances people simply do the best they can in keeping traditions. For some waking up for z'man krias sh'ma is very difficult but when they do get around to praying they take an hour and a half.
    People are always being mo'reh heter. There is a life to live but alas they are Jewish and believe in the religion. Sometimes when things are particularly hard for them they do their best and still consider themselves followers of Halacha.

    Neal

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  11. It's hugely complicated.

    I also try to wear "tznius-lite" clothing in the frum community but then people at shul get annoyed b/c I should respect shul standards, etc, etc. I do feel like it would be hypocritical of me to wear full tznius so there is a constant tension...

    Tznius went out the window for me when I realized that even if I kept every single chumra, the goal of tznius would be lost anyway.

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  12. Of course another problem is that one day I am going to have to explain to my daughter why she has to wear knee socks/tights when I don't.

    So far the explanation that I have given my kids with regards to things that I do not do is that I am not as frum as totty, but children are obligated to follow the minhagim of their father. It has worked so far, but we will see how long that lasts.

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  13. My oldest is seven and my youngest (the only girl) is three.

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  14. > So far the explanation that I have given my kids with regards to things that I do not do is that I am not as frum as totty, but children are obligated to follow the minhagim of their father. It has worked so far, but we will see how long that lasts.

    As a kid I hated going to shul. My mother always told me that it was my place to go to shul with my father, and I routinely responded, “But you never go to shul!”

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  15. We R all prisoners here of our own device. Some day love will find you break those chains that bind you. Listen to your heart. Listen to the voice within with your arms around the future and your back up against the past. Here I go I'm on on the road again there I go turn the page. There's more to learn from late 20th century rock n roll than from all the pages of tanya. FEEL the rain upon your skin Only you can feel iti

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  16. FYI, referring to college as "college" marks you as a frummy for whom college is a big deal... most college students refer to college as "school"

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  17. So are you a hot chani now? :P

    >How is it logical to assume that God would not care about knees showing, but would care about whether you turn on lights on shabbos or whether you have separate dishes for meat and dairy?

    Well, if you are discussing YHYW, then he clearly "cares" about some things (biblically). That doesn't mean he would "care" about everything. Many of the things are rabbinic. Maybe YHYW simply wants us to care enough that we are kept distinct. If that means in one generation to cover knees, then fine. Maybe a future generation will need to do something else. It's rather difficult to use the word "care" in this context when so many things are left to us to decipher. IMO at least.

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  18. Does the cooler weather make it easier? I'm sitting here in opaque tights, knee-covering skirt and covered elbows - not because I am into super-tznius, but because I work in an office where skirts are appropriate, and it was surprisingly cool this morning.

    Would it reduce your concern about being a hypocrite to develop your own sense of what is appropriate in dress? There are non-religious people who nevertheless feel that knee-length skirts are better than minis, that sleeveless isn't appropriate in some settings, that cleavage is an issue, etc. I've done my own fence-straddling on this issue, and what helps is having the sense that I'm dressed appropriately, attractively and in my own style, so that I can just look good instead of feeling like I'm wearing a costume or billboard.

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  19. JKR Mommy, what you are saying is absolutely true. When I was growing up my mother wouldn't have known the word "tznius" from a loaf of bread, but she had certain standards of dress that were inviolable. No miniskirts (though shorts were OK), and no bra straps showing (go outside in any North American town in the heat of summer and see how many people are now violating that - a pretty fair percentage). She was not too into hooker heels, though she let me get Candie's mules when they were the rage (we're talking late 70s or early 80s).

    A lot of people who ditch tznius because they no longer believe experiment with styles that are quite revealing, some of which I would never wear even if the word "tznius" had never entered my life.

    On the other hand, a not-too-tight pair of pants is generally less revealing than a "tznius" knee length skirt. A good dose of common sense is a must in dressing appropriately.

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  20. True about the pants. That's why I wear them for active and casual things - they keep me covered when skirts don't. In fact, Muslim women here tend to prefer them, because it's the easiest way to keep the entire leg covered.

    On the flip side, that's why I look better in skirts!

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  21. Oz V'Hadar Levusha isn't even legitimate, though lots of people consider it "the authority on tznius".

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  22. Also, I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me just what is "tznius" about a rabbi inspecting women's bloody underwear and a mikva attendant knowing when every frum woman in her community is having sex.

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  23. "How do you handle haircovering in your secular clothing"

    OK, this pisses me off and I'm tired of seeing frummies say it. Why is anything other than Orthodox Judaism "secular" or "modern"?

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  24. I'm sorry to hijack this comments section, but your statement (about teaching your children to follow rules that you don't believe in because your husband does believe in them) really bothered me.

    If you don't believe in Judaism anymore, don't teach it to your kids. If the religion isn't correct, the rule about "following one's father's minhag" is a moot point. How is telling your children to stop following Judaism any less valid than a BT making his kids become frum?

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  25. Tova,

    Rabbi Falk published a mekoros sefer to accompany his book and it is quite enlightening. The mekoros sefer brings the sources for everything that he wrote in the book. Some of the halachos that he derived from the primary sources seem very logical, while others seem to be quite a stretch. Given that he has a basis for what he says and is accepted by many rabbonim, it is quite a stretch to say it isn't legitimate as far as OJ is concerned.

    For anyone who wants to see it, the book is written in Hebrew and is a two-volume set called "Levusha Shel Torah". It says in the preface that it is meant for the husbands (sexist, don't you think) who are talmidei chochomim and is therefore written a higher level with real sources.

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  26. Tesyaa and JRK,

    I don't want to wear "frum-looking" clothing because I don't want to appear frum. If I show up every single day in long skirts and long sleeves, then I will appear frum, especially if my hair is covered. Wearing that combo occasionally wouldn't necessairly be a problem. Therefore I am making a point of either wearing pants and/or short sleeves.

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  27. Tova,

    The explanation given (which I'm sure you have heard) is that the Rabbi is a professional like a doctor and therefore just views it as work. For the same reason, it is permissible (but not ideal) for a women's pool to use a male lifeguard.

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  28. Tova,

    In this context it is a correct use of the term secular. The clothing of someone who does not have to dress in a certain way for religious reasons is secular--meaning not religious--while the person may in fact practice a religion and not be secular.

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  29. Tova,

    I am teaching it to my kids because I want to stay married, not because I believe that I have any inherent moral obligation to do so. If I would start letting my kids break halacha then my husband would divorce me and fight for full custody.

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  30. Fence Sitter,

    Unless you do something dumb like let a Beit Din adjudicate your divorce, you are unlikely to lose custody for letting your children break reilgious law. Indeed, if you make the situation about how your husband is a fundamentalist lunatic insisting on schools that don't educate children, you'll likely do better than you think. Stay married because you are happily married and/or the children benefit from your marriage. Do NOT stay married because you fear your husband.

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  31. Fence sitter isn't entirely wrong for not wanting to put her kids in the middle of a religious difference in opinion.

    No, she shouldn't do things that she believes are wrong for her children out of fear.

    It's possible, though, to believe that parents should generally present a united front with children, and that one parent shouldn't suddenly change the rules in the middle of the game. IME, the actual content of the rules matter far less to children than having them applied consistently, and not in a context of conflict.

    At the same time, if a parent goes along with something out of fear and resentment, it's going to show. I found that with any issue between dh and I, the key is taking ownership of any decision even if it was the idea of the other one. So, if you decide that certain guidelines for dress are appropriate for your kids, that becomes YOUR decision just as much as it is your husband's, and the background to that decision ceases to be relevant.

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  32. Fence,

    I am hoping that your husband learns to put your feelings above that of his religious beliefs/traditions. I know that it may seem to him that the will of Hashem is more important than his relationship with you or his children, but you can't have unconditional love and respect for your family without putting them first. Shalom Bayis is mitzvah in of itself.

    A man's family should be his first priority. Hopefully he can come to realize that before it is too late.

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  33. A. Your problem is not one of intolerance but of snobbishness. It's very obvious that you need to feel superior to those around you. This is what first moved you to frumkeit as a kid. It made you feel superior to your secular parents, relatives and friends.

    Then, once frum, you first felt superior by occupying the moral high ground over those compromising wishy-washy FFBs. So what if you can't pronounce Hebrew words right and your kids can't eat in your parents home? You're still better than them!

    Now, that you've decided that the Kuzari is a crock and seen the light of enlightenment you feel doubly superior to both FFBs and your fellow BTs because they are primitive and benighted and you are progressive and well-informed.

    No wonder you were attracted to Kharedism consistency instead of MO vaccilation, you too are consistenty... A consistent Holier-than-thou snob.

    B.As you walk down the street in questionably-tznius, yet frum-looking clothing, there are young women out there looking at me with the same sense of moral and intellectual superiority that you once felt, and continue to feel, towards others.

    C.Continue with your hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is the homage that vice pays to virtue.

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  34. out there looking at me with the same sense =out there looking at YOU with the same sense

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  35. And you, fundie bray, can feel superior to fence sitter. YOUR snobbiness is also coming across loud and clear.

    http://xkcd.com/774/

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  36. Right. When the wimp FINALLY throws a punch at the bully they too are guilty of bullying. I wish that Fence Sitter would respond either here or on DovBear.

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  37. Bray,

    I would like to know how you think that you can judge the motivations for everything that I have done since childhood on the basis of a few posts on the internet.

    Yes, I had an improperly judgmental attitude with regard to tznius in the past. I admitted that. However, that pales in comparison to the judgmentalism that you are exhibiting now.

    People are not one-dimensional. A person's personality and motivations for behavior are complex.

    Do you seriously not see the irony of writing a judgmental rant about how someone you have never met is judgmental?

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  38. Not at all. I find you a transparent and easy read. A self-described obnoxious piece of work in every phase of your adoption and dropping of religion. You must have been particularly insufferable during your wigged out phase.

    A little humility would go a long way towards any scintilla of a chance that remains for you to save your marriage and your children. You always thought that you were smart enough to figure it ALL out. A few strong questions and you folded like a cheap camera. Sorry, but Torah, Israel and Judaism are much bigger than you dear.

    As intellectually gifted as you manifestly are there are imponderables of both human frailty and Divine Perfection that we puny beings cannot begin to wrap our minds around.

    If you blog, and lay all of your inner life into the open on the world wide web (talk about rebelling against tznius! Your post about being careful for what you wish for is more pritzusdik than a porn site)don't cry foul when big bad trolls virtually judge you. a Blog = a weB log= a diary= an autobiography. I have met many an historical figure through there writings only.

    Come on over to my blog and feel free to return the favor.

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  39. Fence,
    The Bray is right on this one.

    Also you're screwing up your kids all because of your own selfish "reasons." Stop being so self centered and do what's right for your kids. Either straighten yourself out, or get out of their lives. Your mixed messages are confusing them, and they'll lose any respect that they have for you, as soon as they get old enough to figure it all out.

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  40. Have a good eye, and hold on tight to the rope of faith in this last generation. You can still come back and cling onto the Tree of Life. Teshuva is always open. Don't judge others for their lackings and be strong and be tz'nuah.

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