Monday, May 23, 2011

Does Orthodox Judaism Provide a Healthier Lifestyle?

Recently, XGH wrote about the advantages of being orthoprax over becoming not frum. He wrote that these advantages include an increased focus on spirituality, morality, and community.

This resonates with me because recently I have been thinking about the question of whether it is worth it to be frum even if the Torah is not from Sinai. I once read something written by a woman whose husband told her, before they got married, that despite being an atheist he chose to stay frum because he believed that Orthodox Judaism was the best lifestyle yet discovered. He felt that in order to have the benefits of the lifestyle it is necessary to keep halacha completely in accordance with the letter and the spirit of the law. Therefore, despite his lack of belief, he davened three times a day and asked a rav whenever any questions arose.

So, the question is, does following Orthodox Judaism enable one to have a better life than one could without it?

My inclination is to say that the Orthodox Jewish lifestyle, at least in its charedi form, is a better lifestyle for children and a worse one for adults.

As someone who grew up in both the secular and frum worlds, and is now raising children in the frum world, I can confidently state the advantages of raising children frum. Children who grow up in the secular world are exposed to a barrage of bad middos emanating from much of the media, and even if the parents themselves limit or forbid any inappropriate programs, it is quite likely that their classmates' parents have not. Therefore, it is quite common for children to look up to and try to emulate the behaviors of superficial and morally-bankrupt movie stars and sports heros. Additionally, there is very little emphasis on middos in general presented to little kids in secular society. Frum schools and parents, at least in theory, teach children the importance of concepts such as not gossiping, respecting elders, and self-control in a way that is not taught in the public school system. As the Rambam states, even the act of keeping mitzvos themselves can help improve middos. A kid who grows up keeping kosher learns self-control better than one who does not. Frum children also typically have more siblings than their secular counterparts and thus gain the benefits of learning to consider others needs before their own.

Another huge advantage to kids that the frum world offers is the emphasis on learning. In most public schools, any child who is actually interested in learning is regarded as nerdy. The children consider learning to be a necessary evil and place greater value on those who are good at sports than those who are good at learning. Unfortunately even some of the parents feel this way too. Frum kids, however, recognize the value that both the Torah and society places on learning and therefore regard it highly.

So why, then, is the lifestyle not better overall?

To me it seems that in spite of the advantages that the frum lifestyle offers for children, it has significant drawbacks for adults. The frum lifestyle, as I discussed in previous posts, expects everyone to fit into a mold and thus removes much of the freedom of choice from its adherents. In many circles, one must marry young, not go to college, and have many children. Women are supposed to place family first and therefore face a very restricted list of potential careers. Men, who are expected to place learning first, also face a limited variety of career options and often end up getting to spend little time with their families. The limited career opportunities, combined with the high expenses of living an orthodox Jewish lifestyle, force many frum families to live under unbearable financial hardship and stress. These factors combined leave many people feeling stressed, trapped, and miserable, and prevent people from finding fulfillment in areas outside of the home and/or bais medrash. This is particularly true for people who do not fit the mold.

While it is true that people who are "atypical" struggle in secular society as well, they are likely to struggle less. Secular society, being as large as it is, has many subgroups in which everyone can find his or her place. Frum society is so small and so rigid that many people simply do not have a place within its confines.

Okay, so if frum society is better for children and worse for adults, what is the answer? Modern Orthodoxy may work as a compromise, but the problem with MO is that it provides fewer of the benefits for children while still having some of the problems for adults, such as monetary stress and a lack of time for family.

Is it worth it to sacrifice our children's childhood so that they can have a better adulthood, or vice versa? What if the children have the personalities that make them likely to succeed in the frum world?

What are your thoughts?

32 comments:

  1. I guess it depends on how much you can handle? I really can't handle the charedi lifestyle anymore so we opted for a modern orthodox (officially) school for my eldest son. But it does add more financial strain. BTW: I am not sure if charedi is always better. At least my child doesn't have to make longer hours at school and sit in school on Sundays next year. Just saying.

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  2. i dont love the MO world either, but it seems to me you get to have your cake and eat it too there.

    The MO approach takes care of two major issues that you did not bring up as it relates to kids. One is the tsnius, separation of the sexes issue and the other is the seclusion (contribute to the world!, education!), judgmental issue (non frum, goyim, shvartzas, gays, etc). Both of these, in my view are detrimental to raising healhty children who will ontribute to society. (yes, there are good things about the focus on tsnius, but there is a balance, which MO provides, in my view.)

    curious, how old are your kids?

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  3. My kids are three, five, and seven.

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  4. Ms. Sitter,

    That is young. Just wait till they start coming home with some whacky stuff from middle school and high school (especially the girls).

    kenina hora....enjoy your kids

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  5. > despite being an atheist he chose to stay frum because he believed that Orthodox Judaism was the best lifestyle yet discovered.

    Most people think that the lifestyle they grew up with is the best – or at the very least, it’s their baseline for “normal.”

    > So, the question is, does following Orthodox Judaism enable one to have a better life than one could without it?

    There is nothing that one can do as an Orthodox Jew that one cannot do as a secular Jew, other than belong to the Orthodox community.

    > A kid who grows up keeping kosher learns self-control better than one who does not.

    I don’t think so. For most frum kids, especially Chareidi kids (and most adults) it’s not as if they wish they could go to McDonalds, but control themselves and so don’t. It would never seriously occur to them to eat there in the first place.

    > Frum children also typically have more siblings than their secular counterparts and thus gain the benefits of learning to consider others needs before their own.

    But they have less parental attention and there are less family resources available, both because of the cost of caring for a large family and because of the huge financial drain of tuition for all those kids.

    > Another huge advantage to kids that the frum world offers is the emphasis on learning.

    On learning TORAH. Kids who study secular subjects are still considered nerdy and in some right-wing schools, troublemakers.

    > The frum lifestyle, as I discussed in previous posts, expects everyone to fit into a mold

    This is MORE true for kids than for adults. If you’re a boy, you must learn gemara for six hours a day, and what’s more, you must enjoy it! An adult can get away with contributing to society in other ways.

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  6. Why would you want to subject your children to all the craziness they'll learn at a religious school By the time they reach a level at which they can make a rational choice, they may be too brainwashed or overwhelmed by the societal pressure to conform.

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  7. G3-

    Keeping kosher teaches self-control because one cannot always eat whatever food one wants. The kid knows that no matter how much he wants the candy bar without the hechsher, he can't have it, and no matter how much he wants ice cream, he has to wait six hours after he finished his hamburger.

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  8. I would add 2 things.

    1) If kids are brought up ultra orthodox, they are taught that this is the only way to live. Leaving or even going to school (which I am sure you can relate to) is forbidden. So, remember that in a way this live is being imposed on them forever.
    2) You can minimize the problems that arise by sending kids to an ultra orthodox school by being 100% aware of what is going on in school. In the event that the child does not fit in or wants to go to school when he/she is older, the parent can always make the changes, making the frum system more suited to the kid. So it may not be an all or nothing decision.

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  9. I truly feel strongly that if you commit yourself to having children, you should be present in their life and upbringing. It is with your guidance that your children will grow up to be the adult you'd like to see them become. Religion aside!

    I think religion is an 'easy' way out of having to be the one to teach the children simple ettiquette and morals. I struggled with this a lot when we started having kids.

    Also please don't ever make the mistake of thinking that the frum lifestyle encourages learning. It does the opposite- it encourages regurgitation and strongly discourages any learning, if that learning doesn't fully fit the mould of frum judaism. If a girl has an interest in astronomy or chemistry, etc.? Too bad. It does most certainly not encourage learning. I've been through that indoctrination. Teaching it is NOT.

    But, I do understand what you are saying, and I did see the beauty of having a frum orthodox life and how 'safe' it kept the children and how easily it taught the things I'd like to instill in my own children. However, I disagree strongly with how it's done and so my husband and I had a lot of thinking and discussing on how we'd like to raise our children. We opted to homeschool. Not ideal for everyone, I realize this. But it gave us the opportunity to raise our children with good morals, with good ettiquette without the constraints religion would have given them. They are free to choose their own path and free to have the choice to pursue whatever field of interest when they are older. As the parent, we do control what media our child is exposed to. As a parent we are the ones teaching them good middos. We surround ourselves with like-minded individuals whose children are raised the same. There are many secular families out there. More than even we were aware of till we started looking.

    We involve our childre in homeschool activities. Some activities they have chosen to do does involve public school kids. And we have indeed seen such a difference in behavior when children educated in a public school system is involved. But our children know right from wrong. I am proud to see them react to situations well enough to bring about comments on how well behaved they are and how proud I must be. I know I am doing a good job and I know this is how my mother must have felt when she received the same compliments when I was in a yeshiva school. So I guess I just wanted to state that you do not need to feel confined to a religious school experience to obtain the effect you so desire for your childrens upbringing.

    Ultimately, it isn't the religion, the habits, or the technique or minutes of what's taught that makes these children more well behaved and more well adjusted. It's simply that they've had their parents present in their upbringing. This is the single largest advantage available. Past that, catholic, frum, buddhist... doesn't matter in the slightest- that's just candy coating. Simple direction goes the furthest, where it's up to the parent to choose WHICH direction.

    One last thing and I promise to stop rambling --I also wanted to add that it's so much more rewarding to have a child who does the right thing because it's IS the right thing, as opposed to a child who does the right thing because god says so or in fear of what wrath will be brought upon them if they do not do the right thing.

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  10. Wow, this is a post from deep in the bubble.

    Children who grow up in the frum world are exposed to a barrage of bad middos: stifling conformity, continuous judgementalism, community leaders committing fraud and espousing bigotry. And, of course, the increased risk of molestation.

    It's worth pointing out that American society does try to teach middos, through its religious institutions, but also through group activities at its schools - team sports, band, drama and the like. This approach has been known to backfire, creating social hierarchies, but then, the frum community's managed to
    adapt loshon hara into a tool for protecting child molesters.

    Frum culture's emphasis on "learning" is deeply misleading. It's not education, in either an academic
    or vocational sense. Instead, it's a form of cultural indoctrination, restricting rather than broadening the student's horizons.

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  11. >stifling conformity

    This is not a bad midda in and of itself. Everyone conforms in one way or the other. As Herman Wouk writes, the only true non-conformers are sitting in the asylums. You can conform all you want, as long as you are not out there hurting anyone. I would agree with you on the judgementalism that I find in the charedi circles. But in general, it has been my experience that a religious' child middot is higher, especially now-a-days.

    >but also through group activities at its schools - team sports, band, drama and the like

    None of these are there to teach middot (especially in the high schools). They are there for you to learn an extra curricular activity. THROUGH them, you MIGHT learn good values or you may not. But there isn't an active push for learning middot and to carry it through your life as a defining characteristic of who you are.

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  12. Sure there's good conformity, of the "we shall all obey the law of the land" variety.

    Then there's the increasingly claustrophobic conformity you experience as you slide to the right of the Orthodox spectrum, where the derech is an inch wide, and its defenders will happily ruin the lives of anyone who prefers a slightly wider path.

    Today's news from New Square is extreme, but part of a long-standing trend.

    On the subject of group activities, you're simply wrong. These activities were created for the explicit purpose of building character, by teaching children to work together for a common goal. And, yes, there are many groups that actively push for learning "middot" through group activities -- just Google sports and character. It doesn't always work, but neither does yeshiva education in middot.

    There's a certain irony in quoting Herman Wouk -- as a writer for Broadway and television, the segment of Orthodoxy he represents is far, far smaller now than when he wrote his apologia.

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  13. Kashrut absolutely teaches self control. I see small children melt down in grocery stores over candy all the time. The fact that my children ask if something is kosher is a tribute to how Kashrut teaches one to think before eating something.

    There are many parts of Frum life than can be used to teach valuable life lessons, particularly in the MO world where we mix Orthodoxy with normal life. The trend in Frum circles, sadly, is NOT do use Orthodoxy to teach lessons, but instead avoid putting children in any situation where they will be challenged.

    Kashrut = lesson in self control when you go to a normal grocery store
    Kashrut = simple wealth transfer from people to grocers if you only shop in "frum" stores to avoid Kashrut concerns

    Regarding middot, Orthodox kids have far inferior middot to non-Orthodox kids, if you are comparing apples to oranges.

    The Orthodox kids I encounter are significantly worse behaved than their secular Jewish or gentile counterparts, meaning, the children of doctors and lawyers that are modern Orthodox behave significantly worse than the children of doctors and lawyers that are Reform Jews and/or Protestants and Catholics.

    When you hold socio-economic status constant, I believe that our children are taught very poor behavioral practices. However, I think that this is largely cultural. The children are told to hold their Rebbeim in high esteem, and without fail, the Rebbeim in the schools come from a lower socio-economic (and more rightwing) background.

    So yes, "our kids" aren't getting pregnant or doing drugs. OTOH, I knew many secular Jewish kids growing up, and they also are weren't getting pregnant or doing drugs. The Orthodox kids only look good in comparison to kids that they should look better than, they don't look better to their Reform/Conservative counterparts. This is a huge problem, and undermines the Orthodoxy = healthier lifestyle.

    Does Torah observance provide a healthier lifestyle? I think that it does. But little of what passes for Orthodox culture these days has much to do with Torah or Torah observance.

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  14. Well you can learn self-control from OJ, but it's often at the cost of obsessive-compulsive neurosis. Add a heavy dose of sanctimony and an excessive reliance on rabbinical authority, and you have a recipe for long term dysfunctionality.

    The kids I see who by and large appear to have the healthiest lifestyles are Boy Scouts or kids who are involved with judo or non-elite level organized sports. They can learn self control in those environments without all the brainwashing of Orthodox Judaism.

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  15. >Then there's the increasingly claustrophobic conformity you experience as you slide to the right of the Orthodox spectrum, where the derech is an inch wide, and its defenders will happily ruin the lives of anyone who prefers a slightly wider path.

    Sure, anything done to extremes is bad. But im not arguing extremes. Just general conformity even with orthodoxy still contributes to good midot in people.

    >On the subject of group activities, you're simply wrong. These activities were created for the explicit purpose of building character, by teaching children to work together for a common goal. And, yes, there are many groups that actively push for learning "middot" through group activities -- just Google sports and character. It doesn't always work, but neither does yeshiva education in middot.

    Drama and band were created to explicitly build character???? Like I said, they can help out with certain things especially when you have a group goal, but I don't believe it necessarily carries out to the middot one should have for every day life. I was in band. I don't remember learning anything about charity, honoring adults, the evils of gossip.

    There is an interesting quote from here
    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/ethics-everyone/201006/do-sports-really-build-character

    "It seems to me that participation in sports can build character, but it doesn't just happen, we must be intentional about it."

    Thats my point. Its the being "intentional about it" part. The goal in orthodoxy (though it does fail as well) is to be intentional about it every moment. Sports, band, drama can end when the the child comes home or is not practicing those things. Our kids school, for example has plays a few times a year to highlight a particular midda, and the lesson continues on when they get home. It's a particular lifestyle.

    Don't me wrong. I would not call myself traditional orthodox. But growing up secular and going through the public school system all my life and then weighing in, personally, I clearly see that the system is geared toward refining character.

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  16. I actually think the boy scouts are better than sports, drama or band.

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  17. My intent was to demonstrate that secular American society devotes effort to character education.

    FWIW, I suspect that the boy scouts are better than sports, drama or band at building character.

    The "middot" American society prioritizes aren't the same as those prized by frum society -- secular society values tolerance more, frum society values obedience more -- but the common frum preconception.
    expressed by the original post, that secular society doesn't teach values, is just another self-serving frum myth.

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  18. This post is clearly written from the viewpoint of someone who still believes (somewhat) in Orthodox Judaism.

    And that's cool...but I don't agree with the "OJ values learning" and "OJ teaches kids middos while the outside world doesn't" ideas, as well as others.

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  19. Thanks everyone for your thought-provoking comments.

    I was basing my comments about childhood on personal experiences. When I was seven, I still attended public school. I am therefore comparing the experiences of my oldest child in his frum school, to my experiences in public school twenty-years earlier. I attended a "good school district" in an upper-class neighborhood, and everything that I wrote in the post seems to hold true. I have no question that my son's childhood experiences are better than mine.

    Yet, as they say, the plural of anecdote is not data and I understand the arguments of the other side. But given that the quality of an upbringing cannot be measured, I can only judge from experience.

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  20. >This post is clearly written from the viewpoint of someone who still believes (somewhat) in Orthodox Judaism.

    Is it not possible to judge aspects of OJ lifestyle on its own, whether or not you believe in its dogmas?????

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  21. >So why, then, is the lifestyle not better overall?

    >Women are supposed to place family first and therefore face a very restricted list of potential careers. Men, who are expected to place learning first, also face a limited variety of career options and often end up getting to spend little time with their families. The limited career opportunities, combined with the high expenses of living an orthodox Jewish lifestyle, force many frum families to live under unbearable financial hardship and stress.

    Reading this, I have to simply ask, what orthodox are you talking about? "Frum" is way to big of a generality. I know in Los Angeles, this isn't even your typical charedi.

    Though, I would like to say that putting family first is a positive value for all.

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  22. There are other options. There are those of us who lead a mostly secular lifestyle, yet choose to limit our children's' exposure to unhealthy influences. Living outside the frum world does not prevent one from limiting media access. Additionally there are subcultures and educational institutions in the secular sphere that emphasize balanced and healthy moral/ethical views.

    Is it not ultimately wiser for children to learn how to think critically and independently? These skills need not be divorced from values that emphasize respect for one's self as well as others.

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  23. Hh, woah!!, thats not how they do it in LA? Well i guess you have nothing to do with the other 99% of the yeshiviah world in bnei brak, lakewood, flatbush, boropark, monsey, baltimore...etc etc

    You truly live in la la land

    Ksil

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  24. Ksil....no matter if its XGH, or any other blog, I await for one intelligent comment from you that actually deals with something someone asks instead of dumb sarcasm.

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  25. HH, lets see if you can follow this. It may be hard for you, i understand. but try.

    fencesitter said that most/many in the frum community hold certain values about the sexes, in particular when it comes to the roles of men and women

    you say that in your experience that is not true and in fact the orthodox jews you know do not hold those values and behave that way. becasue yuo live in los angeles and do not see that.

    I then point out that 99% of the frum/charedi/black hat/yeshivish (whatever you want to call it) in the entire world DO BELIEE AND BEHAVE THAT WAY.

    you then say i am full of dumb sarcasm and have never posted one inteligent comment.

    I then quietly shake my head in my office thinknig of your life just perusing through these blogs instigating and poking sticks at people.

    la la land indeed

    ksil

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  26. Yes, it is hard for me. And here is why.

    You say:

    "fencesitter said that most/many in the frum community hold certain values about the sexes, in particular when it comes to the roles of men and women"

    But lets see what fencesitter said that I ACTUALLY QUOTED:

    "The frum lifestyle, as I discussed in previous posts, expects everyone to fit into a mold and thus removes much of the freedom of choice from its adherents."

    Notice, she doesn't say "many' or "most." YOU just added that in. She said the frum lifestyle (i.e, the lifestyle as a whole in general). To which I asked her to define the type of orthodox she is referring to.

    Now, I know the type is referring to. They do exist, but they don't encompass the whole of frumdom. Have you ever been to Israel OUTSIDE of bnei brak? Shockingly, there are frum people that don't behave the way fense sitter describes. Specifically referring to what SHE said that woman have to put their families first when they aren't given opportunities and the men put their families second. I can understand how frustrated that can be when you have to support a family, while your husband does nothing, but yet you are not allowed to even get a degree which will help your family survive.


    Now, getting back to you. Do you see why I think, for a skeptic, you rank somewhere down on the bottom of the list? You do this on XGH too. You see a believer, and you simply jump on their comments without really thinking through what they said. You simply have these knee jerk reactions.

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  27. i see a believer?!?!? i dont know who you or anyone else is or what they believe. I see a comment that stirs me and i respond. i dont care who makes it.

    most of us are in the same boat around these parts, we live in very similar communities in the US and when we refer to them as frum and discuss the frum lifestyle, this is what we are talking about. i am not sure what you add by saying there are some cities in israel that you can find that are not that way, or LA is not that way. THAT IS NOT THE POINT! you are trying to distract from the point of this, which is the typical frum community and people where many of us live and grew up has flaws and we struggle with that.

    you on the other hand do not seem to agree with any single one of these bloggers, yet spend your days and nights trying to refute or pick apart or find one data point that may be off slightly. I dont get that. go do something else, you seem to just like to poke the bee hive.

    ksil

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  28. >i am not sure what you add by saying there are some cities in israel that you can find that are not that way, or LA is not that way. THAT IS NOT THE POINT! you are trying to distract from the point of this, which is the typical frum community and people where many of us live and grew up has flaws and we struggle with that.

    What am I adding?????? I don't understand. The comment said "the frum lifestyle". Meaning, frum style, by definition is a lifestyle that leads to XYZ.
    But that is not correct so I correct it.

    Whats the big deal?

    It didn't sound as if she was talking about specific frum communities but all frum communities. Is there no room for correction in your book ksil?

    >yet spend your days and nights trying to refute or pick apart or find one data point that may be off slightly

    You seem to be new here. I have been on the blogs for many years. There are plenty of points I would agree with on skeptical blogs, and there are things i don't agree with. Haven't you ever been to OJ blogs where you have the usual skeptics hanging around????? Are they poking the bee hive? Just like skeptics don't particular enjoy letting believers getting away with falsehoods, i don't particular like letting skeptics getting away with falsehoods either.

    And regarding what you are saying about "one data point." It's not one data point. It's a big part of the post. It's a public blog and people read this. People build opinions based on what they read by people that have experience. So a writer, for the sake of truth should be as truthful as possible.

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  29. you do this all the time.

    someone says the "thr frum community is flawed becasue of XYZ" and you badger for days suggesting that its not like that in LA!!! so why are you generalizing?!?!?

    its a lame argument. we are talking about most of the communities that exhist, that we live in, that we visit, that we go to weddings in. not the one exception (apparently). its not a falsehood.

    sheesh

    ksil

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  30. >its a lame argument. we are talking about most of the communities that exhist, that we live in, that we visit, that we go to weddings in. not the one exception (apparently). its not a falsehood.

    Sigh. Lets try this again.

    The claim was "The frum lifestyle." I said: "Frum lifestyle" is too broad of a term and asked her what specific frum she was talking about. Los Angeles is just one example from experience. (You know, just like YOU are bringing personal experiences, so am I). There are many other frum communities that don't fit into what she was talking about.

    If she (and you) are only talking about a specific frum community that you experienced than fine. SAY SO!!! But you didn't.

    YES, it is a falsehood to use the words "the frum lifestyle" to describe those specific charges she made and then claim you are only talking about your experiences.

    Ksil, Focus here at what I am saying. I am not saying that what she described does not exist. I am saying it is wrong of her to say the frum lifestyle by definition leads to XYZ. Is she was talking about certain communities, than shoyn, we are done here...but she didn't. That is why I asked a simple question. Get it now?

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  32. Really interesting post and comments.
    ( I discussed a similar topic, and linked your post here: http://coinlaundryblog.blogspot.com/2012/01/jewish-education-blackwhite-and-shades.html)

    Some other things to consider. The educators in the Haredi system often come from a narrow pool, and from my understanding, the standards of teacher education are not necesarily that high. This will affect the quality of education that children receive.

    In terms of kashrut. Yes, you can look at it as self-control, but there are negatives inherent in the keeping kashrut as well. For example, children are taught to embed morality in a morally neutral action, which in my opinion, paves the way for accepting other irrational propositions down the road. I personally quite resent my early Jewish education for forcing me to waste my guilt on inconsequential actions like mixing meat and milk. There are more appropriate things to feel guilty about. Also, kashrut makes it very difficult for people to explore other cultures through food and travel, thereby alienating Jewish kids from their non-kosher neighbours. . . Which, although may be the point to some extent of keeping kosher, I don’t see it as a positive.

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